thanks for creating this thread, radio!
yes, i think that rather than fighting and just exposing contrary views, its more productive and smarter making an active effort to keep a real dialogue open, with ideas flowing from every side. this way its easier to understand how people have the ideas they have today, and how things could be different, instead of just demonizing the others that have a different view from yours.
so do not hesitate the tiniest bit to post any comment at all! please feel comfortable to informally talk about what bothers you, about your ideas. i too will try my best to be friendly and comprehensive
when im back, ill try to make a coherent and objective text about some toxic aspects of objectification in anime culture, a fairly common practice that affects mostly the female figure, but not only.
some works create an unreal level of plainness in some characters, with the conscious objective (or not) of representing a "type" of person in that character. you know, "the scandalous gay man", "the dumb girl with big breasts", "the obnoxious girl that doesnt mind being groped", "the tsundere", "the bald guy for comedy", "the huge breast woman that seduces everyone and wants to have sex with everyone", "the super muscled dude that is all muscles and testosterone and no brain", "the stupid black guy that is probably a villain". (because of course, an isolate characteristic completely defines a person, you can tell exactly every aspect of any individual based on his hair, body type, sexuality, clothing or behavior vice).
this is incredibly poor and damaging to both: not only the "type" represented (for it becomes a dull caricature with no humanity or depth) but also for the people who watch it. because those poor "type" characters unconsciously enforce the belief those "types" are exactly like shown, that they have little complexity of feelings and issues, and thus further separates people with some trait of that "type" and others. the watchers have more difficult in raising empathy towards people that have some comedic "type" trait, since they arent explored as any other human, but as a representative to fixed ideas that usually do not contemplate most people. they dont have common feelings and concerns that people usually do. they are frequently empty, just a slave to some plot point or comedy scene (or even worse, just sexual depiction of the body figure)
i will avoid using the theme "fan service", because i dont think most things labeled as "fan service" are really a service to the fan, but something completely not productive. true fan service is minding the fans and creating quality content, thats what i think...
ofc some comedy/light-hearted shows arent as serious when creating content, but i think smart humor is desirable, and new ideas and critiques are always welcome.
and unfortunately this isnt taken very seriously on the anime/manga/gaming environment, when its actually quite serious. not exactly for the series itself, since the anime itself hardly creates any harm. But for reinforcing an VERY REAL AND ALREADY ESTABLISHED STRUCTURE OF DISCRIMINATION AND ABUSE in society. unlike a sexist ecchi anime, REAL sexism damages and kills. real sexism destroy careers, families and lives. same to homophobia, transphobia, racism, and so on. anime and manga didnt create sexism, homophobia, or racism; but, in just reproducing common belief, it is reinforcing them, because society IS sexist, homophobic, and racist. everyone is raised on a sexist, homophobic and racist society, so this is why many people turn out to be sexist, homophobic and racist. easy to understand, right?
>>>>> what we need is to make a real conscious effort to stop being what society has always taught us to be. <<<<<
also: if you think sexism, lgbtfobia, racism, xenophobia, etc. arent as dangerous as people say, then i have to tell you youre wrong, and you probably have a very privileged position in society. im dont blame you, its not your fault you are privileged. but recognizing that many bad things that dont affect you do exist and affect many other people is so important to humanity.
please, i ask you, please search for different news than the ones you are used to read. read texts with different ideologies. watch attentively and open minded the latest news, from various internet sources, with various ideologies... and be as compassionate as you can.
WHEW IM LATE HELP
well, talk to you later! please do come in, everyone.
yes, i think that rather than fighting and just exposing contrary views, its more productive and smarter making an active effort to keep a real dialogue open, with ideas flowing from every side. this way its easier to understand how people have the ideas they have today, and how things could be different, instead of just demonizing the others that have a different view from yours.
so do not hesitate the tiniest bit to post any comment at all! please feel comfortable to informally talk about what bothers you, about your ideas. i too will try my best to be friendly and comprehensive
when im back, ill try to make a coherent and objective text about some toxic aspects of objectification in anime culture, a fairly common practice that affects mostly the female figure, but not only.
some works create an unreal level of plainness in some characters, with the conscious objective (or not) of representing a "type" of person in that character. you know, "the scandalous gay man", "the dumb girl with big breasts", "the obnoxious girl that doesnt mind being groped", "the tsundere", "the bald guy for comedy", "the huge breast woman that seduces everyone and wants to have sex with everyone", "the super muscled dude that is all muscles and testosterone and no brain", "the stupid black guy that is probably a villain". (because of course, an isolate characteristic completely defines a person, you can tell exactly every aspect of any individual based on his hair, body type, sexuality, clothing or behavior vice).
this is incredibly poor and damaging to both: not only the "type" represented (for it becomes a dull caricature with no humanity or depth) but also for the people who watch it. because those poor "type" characters unconsciously enforce the belief those "types" are exactly like shown, that they have little complexity of feelings and issues, and thus further separates people with some trait of that "type" and others. the watchers have more difficult in raising empathy towards people that have some comedic "type" trait, since they arent explored as any other human, but as a representative to fixed ideas that usually do not contemplate most people. they dont have common feelings and concerns that people usually do. they are frequently empty, just a slave to some plot point or comedy scene (or even worse, just sexual depiction of the body figure)
i will avoid using the theme "fan service", because i dont think most things labeled as "fan service" are really a service to the fan, but something completely not productive. true fan service is minding the fans and creating quality content, thats what i think...
ofc some comedy/light-hearted shows arent as serious when creating content, but i think smart humor is desirable, and new ideas and critiques are always welcome.
and unfortunately this isnt taken very seriously on the anime/manga/gaming environment, when its actually quite serious. not exactly for the series itself, since the anime itself hardly creates any harm. But for reinforcing an VERY REAL AND ALREADY ESTABLISHED STRUCTURE OF DISCRIMINATION AND ABUSE in society. unlike a sexist ecchi anime, REAL sexism damages and kills. real sexism destroy careers, families and lives. same to homophobia, transphobia, racism, and so on. anime and manga didnt create sexism, homophobia, or racism; but, in just reproducing common belief, it is reinforcing them, because society IS sexist, homophobic, and racist. everyone is raised on a sexist, homophobic and racist society, so this is why many people turn out to be sexist, homophobic and racist. easy to understand, right?
>>>>> what we need is to make a real conscious effort to stop being what society has always taught us to be. <<<<<
also: if you think sexism, lgbtfobia, racism, xenophobia, etc. arent as dangerous as people say, then i have to tell you youre wrong, and you probably have a very privileged position in society. im dont blame you, its not your fault you are privileged. but recognizing that many bad things that dont affect you do exist and affect many other people is so important to humanity.
please, i ask you, please search for different news than the ones you are used to read. read texts with different ideologies. watch attentively and open minded the latest news, from various internet sources, with various ideologies... and be as compassionate as you can.
WHEW IM LATE HELP
well, talk to you later! please do come in, everyone.
The so called "Objectification" is just an excuse to push for censorship. And I guess you know what we think about black/white bars around here.
while listening to some love live songs, i realized many animes are light hearted and made to nurture some happiness and peace of mind where at many times there is little. many people use either netflix, anime or some other form of entertainment because their lives are so stressful. unfortunately, with the pack comes sexual discrimination, but its not directly the show's fault. as i said before, the problem is deeply rooted within thousands of years of human culture and social organization. most of our productions just reflect this aspect. it's not commonplace to be able to watch your costumes from afar and actively criticize them.
anime and manga would be much healthier and better if they started a culture of freedom, a culture of loving yourself, learning the beautiful things each person has to offer, with empathy and respect.
i think the key to dimishing sexism is that men get conscious that, just as themselves, women have thoughts, beliefs, feelings, issues, worries, that each one of them have their unique way of viewing the world, interacting with it, experiencing it (just as their male friends have). so women would be closer to a human being and farther from an object with no uniqueness, just a (unreal) thirst for sex, no matter from who it comes from. this isnt real.
it would be okay to have a few characters that have a strong sexualization if it makes part of who they are, you know? there are people who are naturally more into sex than others. however you know shit is wrong and serious when theres a mass of sexualized girls all in the same ways, grossly ignoring their real personalities.
i know it might seem overreacting to some guys. unfortunately, the only real way you could experience how awful it is is being a girl and living amidst of this.
and again, the entire media oversexualizes and objectifies the female figure, its not a problem of anime alone.
women want to be free too, we are as human beings are men. i swear, we are like you, believe it or not! but like, with a vagina instead of a penis. doesnt change that much. really.
anime and manga would be much healthier and better if they started a culture of freedom, a culture of loving yourself, learning the beautiful things each person has to offer, with empathy and respect.
i think the key to dimishing sexism is that men get conscious that, just as themselves, women have thoughts, beliefs, feelings, issues, worries, that each one of them have their unique way of viewing the world, interacting with it, experiencing it (just as their male friends have). so women would be closer to a human being and farther from an object with no uniqueness, just a (unreal) thirst for sex, no matter from who it comes from. this isnt real.
it would be okay to have a few characters that have a strong sexualization if it makes part of who they are, you know? there are people who are naturally more into sex than others. however you know shit is wrong and serious when theres a mass of sexualized girls all in the same ways, grossly ignoring their real personalities.
i know it might seem overreacting to some guys. unfortunately, the only real way you could experience how awful it is is being a girl and living amidst of this.
and again, the entire media oversexualizes and objectifies the female figure, its not a problem of anime alone.
women want to be free too, we are as human beings are men. i swear, we are like you, believe it or not! but like, with a vagina instead of a penis. doesnt change that much. really.
personally, i have never seen a speech using objectification as an excuse to prohibit and censor anime. i recall having seen complaints of "pedophilia-inducing" (i know its not but anyways) material, but i really dont remember having seen any authority or similar criticizing the female depiction in anime as a way to further censor it.blooregardo said:
The so called "Objectification" is just an excuse to push for censorship. And I guess you know what we think about black/white bars around here.
i too am against censorship. completely, even. i dont think fiction and especially art can/must be censored.
MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE: most people who criticize the female objectification in anime are FEMALE ANIME FANS that want to IMPROVE THE ANIME CULTURE QUALITY AND CONTENT.
ofc, we have different experiences, so please feel free to point out to me (if you feel like ofc!) where did they use objectification as an excuse to censorship. i trust you, no need to prove anything hahahah im just saying maybe its not as common as you lived it
censorship doesnt solve a thing lol..
an object doesnt have own will. a sexual object only has the desire for sex, no matter from where it comes from. this is extremely toxic and wide spread in anime culture, even in material produced by fans.
this might be an easy way of producing content (only changing the package, but the content remains the same horny girl that wants you to fuck her). its incredibly easy, every illustrator can do that, with just the raw emotion of sex craving. but its so bad. its so bad. every girl can be transformed into a soulless horny girl, can be seen in this "waifu goggles", as if they all equally had this "hidden side" of them. well, happens that they dont, most of them. and if they do, its a small side that is undesired or conflicted with other more important parts of them, that would be extremely damaged if only one of their feelings were taken into account. im no psychology master, but i believe everyone is a bit like this.
i dont really understand how hard it is for males to like, administrate their desires and such. but i believe its perfectly possible to do so without mass-fetishizing every fucking anime girl in the world in the same fucking way.
consciousness - girls have a mind, INDEPENDENT of the male's sexual desires.
that is central.
that is reality.
its fucking fiction, yes i love fiction, but anime and manga are going through a dark path where it validates the rape culture EXISTENT in society, the xenophobic, lgbtfobic, racist behavior and judging we have in the REAL world. so its not "only isolated fiction". its fiction INTERACTING with the real world. its some serious shit. we have to grow some balls and assume responsibility. (wow, what a terribly sexist expression, but ok, i dont wanna be a nazi here and i hope you get what i mean!)
if i was too rude, please forgive me, feel free to comment please. DONT BE INTIMIDATED BY MY DISGUSTINGLY LONG COMMENTS HAHAHAH pls thank
this might be an easy way of producing content (only changing the package, but the content remains the same horny girl that wants you to fuck her). its incredibly easy, every illustrator can do that, with just the raw emotion of sex craving. but its so bad. its so bad. every girl can be transformed into a soulless horny girl, can be seen in this "waifu goggles", as if they all equally had this "hidden side" of them. well, happens that they dont, most of them. and if they do, its a small side that is undesired or conflicted with other more important parts of them, that would be extremely damaged if only one of their feelings were taken into account. im no psychology master, but i believe everyone is a bit like this.
i dont really understand how hard it is for males to like, administrate their desires and such. but i believe its perfectly possible to do so without mass-fetishizing every fucking anime girl in the world in the same fucking way.
consciousness - girls have a mind, INDEPENDENT of the male's sexual desires.
that is central.
that is reality.
its fucking fiction, yes i love fiction, but anime and manga are going through a dark path where it validates the rape culture EXISTENT in society, the xenophobic, lgbtfobic, racist behavior and judging we have in the REAL world. so its not "only isolated fiction". its fiction INTERACTING with the real world. its some serious shit. we have to grow some balls and assume responsibility. (wow, what a terribly sexist expression, but ok, i dont wanna be a nazi here and i hope you get what i mean!)
if i was too rude, please forgive me, feel free to comment please. DONT BE INTIMIDATED BY MY DISGUSTINGLY LONG COMMENTS HAHAHAH pls thank
Mansplaining incoming:
You see, we are animals and it's on our genes to, in some point of our lives, procreate. The rules inscribed on our genetic code tells us men to search for a female with maternal instincts and a fertile body (child-bearing hips, feminine facial features and big breasts) And for women: a provider and phisically and mentally capable male.
In the course of life, both males and females develop feminine or masculine traits to ensure reproduction. And the reproduction, unconsciously or not, is a big deal, the individual forges in its mind an ideal of the desired self and the desired mate. From this desire comes the graphic representation of idealized bodies.
To extend on this: I, as a male, find pleasant to look at a woman with the traits I mentioned before. And seeing a fit male body does not affect me because I know that if I put enough work I could achieve that.
I suppose that the sight of a fit male body is desirable for a woman too, or at least, not disgusting. But the current trend of "body acceptance" and the mass-media message of "everyone is special" perverts the mind of the young females telling that it's bad to put work into better themselves and cultivating feminine qualities. Then, the ideal of an apt body instead of serving as motivation translates into jealousy and bitterness (This negative feelings could be amplified by the innate sense of competition of humans)
Now, lets put for example, a pretty girl in a bikini on an advertising. The message of the image goes from "you could look this cute wearing our clothes" turns into "you will never look this cute you fat b*tch"
In conclussion, the so called "objectification" of the female body is almost always done by women themselves. And the "sexist" representation of human bodies (even for commercial purposes) is mostly a representation of an ideal and the appealing to the primal urges of human beings.
PD: Hope my grammar is okay, I'm not good at it.
You see, we are animals and it's on our genes to, in some point of our lives, procreate. The rules inscribed on our genetic code tells us men to search for a female with maternal instincts and a fertile body (child-bearing hips, feminine facial features and big breasts) And for women: a provider and phisically and mentally capable male.
In the course of life, both males and females develop feminine or masculine traits to ensure reproduction. And the reproduction, unconsciously or not, is a big deal, the individual forges in its mind an ideal of the desired self and the desired mate. From this desire comes the graphic representation of idealized bodies.
To extend on this: I, as a male, find pleasant to look at a woman with the traits I mentioned before. And seeing a fit male body does not affect me because I know that if I put enough work I could achieve that.
I suppose that the sight of a fit male body is desirable for a woman too, or at least, not disgusting. But the current trend of "body acceptance" and the mass-media message of "everyone is special" perverts the mind of the young females telling that it's bad to put work into better themselves and cultivating feminine qualities. Then, the ideal of an apt body instead of serving as motivation translates into jealousy and bitterness (This negative feelings could be amplified by the innate sense of competition of humans)
Now, lets put for example, a pretty girl in a bikini on an advertising. The message of the image goes from "you could look this cute wearing our clothes" turns into "you will never look this cute you fat b*tch"
In conclussion, the so called "objectification" of the female body is almost always done by women themselves. And the "sexist" representation of human bodies (even for commercial purposes) is mostly a representation of an ideal and the appealing to the primal urges of human beings.
PD: Hope my grammar is okay, I'm not good at it.
no problem with your grammar at all!blooregardo said:
PD: Hope my grammar is okay, I'm not good at it.
sorry, in the end it became a bit long. but thanks to the new ideas you brought to this thread, i managed to write different things this time, so im really thankful for you, despite those awfully large comments, you had patience, effort and courage to join in and expose yourself... im rly thankful. i try to see your side, i hope that i keep improving on considering your feelings and experiences, and i hope that you can see new things too with what i say here. no hard feelings~ i think life is long, theres no need to rush, it only scrambles things.
that indeed is a truth. however, the degrees to which people are tied to the desire of mating and the will to have kids arent found in equal doses and types in everyone. its a specter. this must be respected. humans do have free will, and its anti ethical, to say the least, trying to force them to copulate and form a family.genetic program
its natural that a heterosexual man thinks like that. surprise: not all women thinks the masculine body is appealing. there are completely homosexual women too, and asexual women. i dont know if youve ever read about romantic and sexual orientations, its definitely worth your time, very very clarifying. really, google it!I suppose that the sight of a fit male body is desirable for a woman too, or at least, not disgusting.
i adore you bloo, you are a captivating person, but i have to say that this point of view is slightly blurred by sexism. its not your fault, as i insisted, society is sexist, so its natural we become sexists. but "what is this sexism"? "i dont think society is sexist, different genders are biologically different".
ok, people born men and people born women do have biological differences.
v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v
the problem with sexism is that it DICTATES HOW A PERSON MUST BE ACCORDING TO THEIR BIOLOGICAL GENDER.
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
a desirable woman, successful in todays society, must be sexually attractive, however she cant be too liberal sexually or will be called a slut (male tears because they cant control the girl as they wanted to, but ok. proceeding.) they must have a slim body, however not too thin, and not too muscular. they must always be neat. they must please the men that look at her, they must be approved by the men surround her or else she will be "disturbing", "not interesting", "not as worthy of respect".
the fact is that women are human beings too. and we dont want to live our lives in submission to men, to dedicate the entire complexity of our existence to pleasing them. no, this is not what we want. ask yourself, your male friends, whoever you talk to: is their sole purpose in life to have sex and raise kids? probably most of them will answer no, that they do have other wishes and dreams in life. many dont even wish to have kids. some dont want to get married. there are a few ones that live an entire life being single. well, tada, women are the same. some of us might see this as really important, but there must be a FREEDOM OF CHOICE. you live your life as you see fit. you understand how wrong it is to oblige people to do something they dont want to? especially when it dictates your entire life: your body, your clothes, your attitudes, your career and life goals, your intimate relationships, your sexual behavior, your position in society. in short, everything.
you and many other men being heterosexual and really craving for a partner doesnt make reality symmetrical to you, as if to every heterosexual man exists a heterosexual woman. its not like this. world isnt black and white like this. its messy. its random. its chaotic. its HUMAN. when you read about the many different kinds of sexual and romantic attraction, im sure you will start realizing this more and more.
you definitely need to understand that women arent a different category of humans that must live by a set of different rules. the individual freedom cant be corrupted. or else, we would live in a dictatorship. (you and i both know the individual freedom isnt respected at all, neither it was ever respected; nowadays we live in the dictatorship of money, of the great capital)
and its this same monetary power that, through the media (be it movies, music industry, fashion, beauty, every fucking enterprise) reinforces sexism, reinforces a fixed role for males and females, a fixed sexual conduct that is the "right one", the "successful one", the "desired", the "normal".
to me, manipulating people's sexualities is one of the most efficient ways of having a dumbfounded, passive, submissive and alienated population. when people dont become the owner of their bodies, of their desires and fantasies, when they dont realize they are in charge, thats when every form of self-diminishing barges in. people dont feel responsible for their lives anymore. they see themselves as victims of circumstances only. they dont feel they can do a thing, they think they depend more on luck than anything else. its wrong. its evil. they think their desires, that are REAL, are wrong and unrealistic. they think that the UNREALISTIC fiction mass media creates is the real, the valid. its not. its an artificial creation based on speculation, on technical enhancement that is nonexistent on the ordinary persons life. people dont interact with each other the same way. they dont see their humanity, their "flaws" and limitations the same way. they have unrealistic expectations of themselves and others. they feel unsafe.
i have to admit i screamed internally a bit when i read this.... XD but its okay, i think i can see your point. to you, being feminine and healthy, taking care of your body, is a super positive and desirable thing. indeed, its not a bad thing at all. it would be good if everyone could maintain a healthy body. h o w e v e r... not every girl wants to live like this. arent there those people that just want to use drugs and dont want to drop it at all, even if it harms them? arent there ppl that wear anything comfortable and dont mind much fashion? arent there a lot of people, especially men (thanks sexism for teaching men they need to be invulnerable and going to the doctor is a sign of weakness and vulnerability) avoid the doctors and their potential chronic diseases develop in much worse ways thanks to the lack of health care? and how about those that dont exercise at all?But the current trend of "body acceptance" and the mass-media message of "everyone is special" perverts the mind of the young females telling that it's bad to put work into better themselves and cultivating feminine qualities.
both women and men can have genetic disorders that greatly affect their regulation of eating, their metabolism, etc. etc. i know this, i studied medicine, i saw this shit in detail, its sad. not to mention other disorders as anxiety and depression that greatly increases the risk of gaining weight, and medication (frequently used in the treatment of these diseases and many others) that make you gain weight. so it isnt as simple as it seems. its great that you are able to maintain a healthy body, but not everyone is in the same pace. some cant find a reason to struggle. some just like their fat lifestyle. morbid obesity is a terrible problem, but what about being just "chubby"? or "fat"?
another thing i studied on med uni, and you can check it for yourself: there are two different kinds of fat. visceral fat and subcutaneous fat. to shorten my comment too, here is the difference: http://www.prevention.com/weight-loss/flat-belly-diet/flat-belly-diet-subcutaneous-and-visceral-belly-fat basically, the fat inside your belly is pro-diabetes, pro-bad cholesterol, pro-inflammatory. here you can see that subcutaneous fat have the opposite effect: anti-diabetes http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25605808 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18460332 and it aids several other patches of metabolism, as mentioned the fat metabolism itself, and if im not wrong it also prevents excessive inflammation, but ill have to search for concrete data later. (im getting sleepy hahah)
so this... "perverted" (:P) defending of appreciating different body types is very healthy. why? people are naturally different. no one has a body identical to the other. some are shorter, some are chubbier, some are more bony, they have different formats, different skin type (in color, patterns, texture, hair), each person has an unique body. learning to see beauty in every human instead of idolizing a specific set of traits is fundamental to each person learning how to love themselves for who they really are. no matter how much you try, if your body structure isnt equal to the media standards, you will never have a body considered "good", "acceptable". is it your fault? are you any less valuable because you dont fit a fucking pattern? thats not right. women are more blatantly victims of that, but men suffer with it, too. think about it... what really is perverted? learning to love and care for yourself and your body? or making people believe they are ugly because they werent born with a specific appearance?
its a cultural thing... the more i get into visual arts, the more i learn theres beauty in everything. in every person, every body, there is poetry.
do you think thats perverted?
you said it with a different argumentative intent, but ill use it to my favor, haha~Now, lets put for example, a pretty girl in a bikini on an advertising. The message of the image goes from "you could look this cute wearing our clothes" turns into "you will never look this cute you fat b*tch"
basically, those brands dont simply sell a bikini. they are selling a life style. a way of being. they say you need their bikini to be happy and fulfilled. but you also need their cosmetics. their lingeries. their formal clothing. their casual clothing. you need them to be successful and beautiful. also, look at this model. shes so beautiful. her hair is unrealistically flawless. her body is perfect, without a single scratch, irregularity, or fat. she is sensual. shes powerful. you want success? well then you have to be like her.
in other words, you have to transform yourself and become a completely different person in many cases lol.
so what if you dont want to? if you think these are bullshit? well thats great for you, be authentic. i dont think those unrealistic standards are any healthy. our current times are just further proving me right... outrageous level of depression, anxiety, anorexia, bulimia, general unhappiness, stress, disappointment with the career...
n o~ is it true that many women are sexist. most of them. they are taught to be sexist. just as men. however, the ones in the top of this power relation are men. they are the ones with most physical force. they are the ones that more freely exert their sexuality and will. no, they arent free, capitalism isnt freedom and sexism isnt freedom either, even for men who have privileges. they are forced to maintain an appearance of invulnerable, sexual potent man. ill ask my feminist friends for a good text about this in english to more concretely prove this point, ill edit this later, okay?In conclussion, the so called "objectification" of the female body is almost always done by women themselves.
well this must have been kinda of a bomb... dont feel bad because of it, just being aware sexism exists and its super harmful for everyone is already a great thing! and its the most difficult step. im happy you read all this anyways. thank you.
as i said before, the shock ideal x reality can be very harmful. ppl often arent able to deal w reality because their expectations and desires are so unrealistic. this causes great suffering. why not cultivate a realistic form of appealing to our urges? a healthy form? well... off i go now. talk to you later! sorry, i could not not be long this time... i really hope, from the deepest part of my heart, that this was any useful to you who read all this. feel free to comment here or pm me.a representation of an ideal and the appealing to the primal urges of human beings.
a short (6 min) and nice video comparing the roles of man and woman in comic books, and their deaths. http://feministfrequency.com/2011/04/07/tropes-vs-women-2-women-in-refrigerators/ please check it,the girl is extremely coherent, objective and argumentative!
So after read few long sentence, I wanna ask something..
Dear Debbie..after you looking the current condition of anime and manga.
What are you gonna do? Are you gonna make your own manga/anime? or making art reallated with anime/mana theme in different style? or gonna spread idea/your thingking?
Dear Debbie..after you looking the current condition of anime and manga.
What are you gonna do? Are you gonna make your own manga/anime? or making art reallated with anime/mana theme in different style? or gonna spread idea/your thingking?
So honestly speaking... if you don't like it then... don't bother. Instead of pushing for others to conform to your ideals, make your own example and have others follow. If you can't then you have no right to complain if you yourself are not doing anything.
To be quite blunt, I don't care about your opinion or others in entertainment. I don't care if it isn't thought provoking. I don't care if it's boobs or dicks or whatever. Entertainment is heavily based on opinion. My opinion is not yours, and vice versa, that's the reality of it.
Socially, I don't care about feminism. I only care about equality. You don't fight for equality by "butchering" things to fit your own selfish views.
You DON'T need to help shield others from reality. If they're smart enough to understand the differences between reality and fiction, then they sure as hell don't need help from a vocal minority.
You can make long drawn out argument that runs in a circular fashion, but in the end, who other than you with like mind care? Did you really ever look at what you're attempting to do and ask yourself, are you truly helping others or are you just trying to satisfy your own idealistic vision? Do the people that you're targeting even give a shit about you?
I've seen these argument go around and around on the forum I mod. It's generally only a few posters vs a lot of others that just don't care or hate what is now denoted as 'social justice'. It's irritating, it's stupid, it's repetitive. I've never seen anyone properly answer the above questions properly. No straight up answer, just some weird side step.
To be quite blunt, I don't care about your opinion or others in entertainment. I don't care if it isn't thought provoking. I don't care if it's boobs or dicks or whatever. Entertainment is heavily based on opinion. My opinion is not yours, and vice versa, that's the reality of it.
Socially, I don't care about feminism. I only care about equality. You don't fight for equality by "butchering" things to fit your own selfish views.
You DON'T need to help shield others from reality. If they're smart enough to understand the differences between reality and fiction, then they sure as hell don't need help from a vocal minority.
You can make long drawn out argument that runs in a circular fashion, but in the end, who other than you with like mind care? Did you really ever look at what you're attempting to do and ask yourself, are you truly helping others or are you just trying to satisfy your own idealistic vision? Do the people that you're targeting even give a shit about you?
I've seen these argument go around and around on the forum I mod. It's generally only a few posters vs a lot of others that just don't care or hate what is now denoted as 'social justice'. It's irritating, it's stupid, it's repetitive. I've never seen anyone properly answer the above questions properly. No straight up answer, just some weird side step.
It doesn't matter, and I don't mean it as in 'I'm a male and i don't feel affected by it'.
You said it. Loli doesn't affect the mind and push people towards pedophilia. So why should seeing women objectified push one to think that they're nothing but sex objects?
Then shouldn't almost all male western main characters being white, muscular and brown/black hair affect women's perception of me? Because I'd be pretty darn ugly and I know I'm not, I've had people compliment me on my looks before.
I don't think women understand us when we tell them to 'make their own'. We don't want to push you out of the media field. Just make more positive examples in media that would appeal to a wider audience so it would be recognized that sexy isn't the only way to go. Because I know it isn't, as someone who grew up with a strong mother figure.
So far, all of feminist orientated media has only been just that.
Making the mistakes of having an all female cast and perpetuating stereotypes on themselves. Always a strong bulky short haired girl wielding some big weapon.
- No, this is hypocrisy. You're saying that women would be better in media if they had features more widely recognized as 'masculine'.
Including every race because 'you want everyone to be able to see themselves'...
- Don't. Makes everyone aside from the white girl look like a token character because it just looks like you tried sooo hard to be diverse.
And a bunch more. Everyone becomes a Mary Sue 'Strong tumblr funded female character!1!!'
And what is a strong female character?
LMAO whole other subject.
Ps. About body shaming and such. Do what you want with your body. BUT DON'T FUCKING HARASS ME WHEN I SAY YOU'RE NOT ATTRACTIVE TO ME
So what I like skinny girls? How does that affect your life? Debbie, why do women think like this? Or at least some of them? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or whatever, this is genuine.
You said it. Loli doesn't affect the mind and push people towards pedophilia. So why should seeing women objectified push one to think that they're nothing but sex objects?
Then shouldn't almost all male western main characters being white, muscular and brown/black hair affect women's perception of me? Because I'd be pretty darn ugly and I know I'm not, I've had people compliment me on my looks before.
I don't think women understand us when we tell them to 'make their own'. We don't want to push you out of the media field. Just make more positive examples in media that would appeal to a wider audience so it would be recognized that sexy isn't the only way to go. Because I know it isn't, as someone who grew up with a strong mother figure.
So far, all of feminist orientated media has only been just that.
Making the mistakes of having an all female cast and perpetuating stereotypes on themselves. Always a strong bulky short haired girl wielding some big weapon.
- No, this is hypocrisy. You're saying that women would be better in media if they had features more widely recognized as 'masculine'.
Including every race because 'you want everyone to be able to see themselves'...
- Don't. Makes everyone aside from the white girl look like a token character because it just looks like you tried sooo hard to be diverse.
And a bunch more. Everyone becomes a Mary Sue 'Strong tumblr funded female character!1!!'
And what is a strong female character?
LMAO whole other subject.
Ps. About body shaming and such. Do what you want with your body. BUT DON'T FUCKING HARASS ME WHEN I SAY YOU'RE NOT ATTRACTIVE TO ME
So what I like skinny girls? How does that affect your life? Debbie, why do women think like this? Or at least some of them? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or whatever, this is genuine.
an interesting text: http://jezebel.com/5870164/the-popularity-and-perfectionism-behind-butt-sex
oh damn, this one is also long, and i quoted you three, so feel free to read it in parts! ill be waiting so no need to stress over it hahaha.
im working on my first remix now, its a lot of trouble when youre starting, but i really want to do it.
i dont want to make plain things. i want to make things that are deep and critical. that shows my reality, feelings, thoughts, and the miseries and wrongness of the world, and the wonders of life and humans.
i like manga style, i might draw in different styles too, but i dont want to abandon manga, it means a lot to me.
thank you for your interest, k@tsu <3
i talked about the opposite, the excessive idealization that distorts peoples standards and perceptions of reality.
im sad you think that social justice are these bad things. indeed, trying to build something just to be constantly smashed by no constructive reason isnt very encouraging. i hope i have answered well enough! feel free to point something out or anything, okay?
an emblematic case happened here in brazil recently: a cooking program featuring only kids as participants had among them a girl called valentina, 12yr old. what happened? mass tweets of brazilian males commenting on the girls attractiveness, stating they would bang her, and other sexual comments. some even marked her twitter account on the tweets.
a 12yr old girl.
its considered pedophilia.
but those guys thought it was okay.
they didnt see themselves as "the damned pedophiles".
pedophilia is a huge taboo, it is. however its slowly starting to permeate our culture without us realizing. we just realize its pedophilia when we come across a gross case of pedophilia, like when a 6yr old is sexually abused and this comes to light (instead of the child keeping quiet, as it happens frequently).
either way, what does it have to do with what we were first discussing, right? i said loli doesnt stimulate ppl to be pedophiles. so why would misogynistic material stimulate ppl to be misogynous?
thats because misogyny is much further infiltrated in society than pedophilia.
make an experiment: try talking about pedophilia somewhere. most people will react with disgust, criticizing the violators as inhuman and sick.
then try talking about sexism. what will happen is many people even denying it exists. some will say its overrated. some others will say that women want privileges. a few might criticize sexism and acknowledge its damage. the fact is that most people dont even realize sexism exists, or think its just a natural thing and harmless, its a correct thing. this is the level of infiltration misogyny achieved in society. it makes people think its normal, its not bad, its part of their natural living.
once i read an extremely interesting article that compares pedophilia to misogyny. in it, the main premise was that, in rape cases, society makes it much more about the sexuality of the victim than the act of the criminal. this insight was brilliant. notice that, the more a woman is sexually active and independent, the more she is blamed when she is a victim of sexual violence. on the other hand, when children are victims of sexual abuse, they are completely pitied and protected by society, as poor angels that suffered an atrocity. but why would the grown women be any less pure and to be pitied because they exert their sexuality in the way they see fit? the only conclusion you can achieve by following this logic is that women are to be blamed if they exert their sexuality following their desires. that this is wrong. that they cant have the sexual lives they want to, or they will be impure, dirty, and undeserving of any human treatment. after all, when a tragedy occurs to them, its not as bad, she had the blame, she "was asking for it". ofc, people choose to be victims of atrocious crimes, its really fun to be that. (not.)
unfortunately, i didnt find this article using google. however, i did find a number of interesting things, that i think that will put it on a brilliant way that i couldnt. take a look at these quotes:
“We mute the realization of malevolence- which is too threatening to bear - by turning offenders into victims themselves and by describing their behavior as the result of forces beyond their control.”
“Oddly then, in our search for meaning, we often assign victims too much blame for their assaults, and offenders too little. Our inconsistencies do not seem to trouble us, but they are truly puzzling. After all, if the offender is not to blame for his behavior, why would the victim be, no matter what she did our didn't do? Our views make sense, however, if you think that we are trying to reassure ourselves that we are not helpless and, that, in any case, no one is out to get us.” - Anna C. Salter, as seen here http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1353702-oddly-then-in-our-search-for-meaning-we-often-assign
“Can a woman not walk with her possessions down the street of a city?” - Brandon Sanderson http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/418799-can-a-woman-not-walk-with-her-possessions-down-the
“Young women are not putting themselves in danger. The people around them are doing the real damage. Who? you might wonder. The abstinence teacher who tells her students that they'll go to jail if they have premarital sex. The well-founded organization that tells girls on college campuses that they should be looking for a husband, not taking women's studies classes. The judge who rules against a rape survivor because she didn't meet whatever standard for a victim he had in mind. The legislator who pushes a bill to limit young women's access to abortion because he doesn't think they're smart enough to make their own decisions. These are the people who are making the world a worse place, and a more dangerous one, at that, for girls and young women. We're just doing our best to live in it.” - Jessica Valenti http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/6651409-young-women-are-not-putting-themselves-in-danger-the-people
“In the 1890s, when Freud was in the dawn of his career, he was struck by how many of his female patients were revealing childhood incest victimization to him. Freud concluded that child sexual abuse was one of the major causes of emotional disturbances in adult women and wrote a brilliant and humane paper called “The Aetiology of Hysteria.” However, rather than receiving acclaim from his colleagues for his ground-breaking insights, Freud met with scorn. He was ridiculed for believing that men of excellent reputation (most of his patients came from upstanding homes) could be perpetrators of incest.
Within a few years, Freud buckled under this heavy pressure and recanted his conclusions. In their place he proposed the “Oedipus complex,” which became the foundation of modern psychology. According to this theory any young girl actually desires sexual contact with her father, because she wants to compete with her mother to be the most special person in his life. Freud used this construct to conclude that the episodes of incestuous abuse his clients had revealed to him had never taken place; they were simply fantasies of events the women had wished for when they were children and that the women had come to believe were real. This construct started a hundred-year history in the mental health field of blaming victims for the abuse perpetrated on them and outright discrediting of women’s and children’s reports of mistreatment by men.” - Lundy Bancroft http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1265678-in-the-1890s-when-freud-was-in-the-dawn-of
“I embrace the label of bad feminist because I am human. I am messy. I’m not trying to be an example. I am not trying to be perfect. I am not trying to say I have all the answers. I am not trying to say I’m right. I am just trying—trying to support what I believe in, trying to do some good in this world, trying to make some noise with my writing while also being myself.” - Roxane Gay
here are a series of quotes from "Bad Feminist", one of Roxane Gay's most acclaimed books. http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/26563816-bad-feminist it's EXTREMELY interesting and elucidating!
examples: pls click me :)
here is a list of articles that she has written to journals and magazines, all linked to the original texts: http://www.roxanegay.com/writing/
ok so back to the question, misogyny and sexism are deeply rooted within society, so when you create a content that reaffirm those roots, youre strengthening them further by coming and going from a place where you dont once exit this society and its way of seeing. youre contributing to naturalizing it further. after all, you see it every fucking day, in every fucking ambient, even in animes. normal. pedophilia isnt a "thing" as sexism, just as more bizarre and morbid content that arts can bear. pedophilia and, lets say, zoophilia/bestiality, arent epidemic as abusing of women. they are less naturalized behaviors that are present in a more punctual fashion. the mass of misogynistic content present in 3d and 2d porn reaffirm, set examples and further perpetuate the already deeply rooted system of exploitation of women and their sexuality.
if you stop to read about 3d porn, youll be horrified with what the actresses live there.
still, pedophile fictional content still has potential to be problematic, perhaps less but it is present. what is urgently needed is a serious, open minded and concerned discussion about fictional content, 3d porn, sexuality and rape. we need to become more and more conscious about the wrongness and violence that exists. i personally enjoy loli/shota content, i think its enchanting, and i dont wish it to be censored or extinguished. but i recognize the importance of discussing it, of raising awareness in people, in not perpetuating ignorance and numbness in people. we need to live with our whole minds and body into it. not being afraid to look at what could be wrong and questioning it. of wanting to change. its not bad. it can be quite good. this is what us feminists believe, generally speaking. we dont want to live as society is living now, because we suffer with it, see injustice and wrongness with it, our lives and ourselves are largely damaged by it. isnt it natural? we are trying to raise awareness to those issues that are so damaging to so many.
whew, that was some journey here. hahaha
lastly, this BEAUTIFUL quote, perhaps the most beautiful ive read today:
“Viciousness is part of the world we live in, some of us choose to ignore it with the rationalisation of wanting only positivity to flow our way. How selfish we have become! That the pain of others has become a hindrance to the fulfilment of our positive selves.”
by Aysha Taryam. http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7042810-viciousness-is-part-of-the-world-we-live-in-some
oh damn, this one is also long, and i quoted you three, so feel free to read it in parts! ill be waiting so no need to stress over it hahaha.
yes! my psychiatric condition isnt stable at all, but im struggling to win and create more. im slowly improving. and i do plan on creating mangas, not only dojins but also original content. and im interested on animations too. and making music. its a lot of interests, and a lot of people say that you have to focus on one thing, but ill handle my interests as i see fit, and i want all of them! hahahaK@tsu said:
So after read few long sentence, I wanna ask something..
Dear Debbie..after you looking the current condition of anime and manga.
What are you gonna do? Are you gonna make your own manga/anime? or making art reallated with anime/mana theme in different style? or gonna spread idea/your thingking?
im working on my first remix now, its a lot of trouble when youre starting, but i really want to do it.
i dont want to make plain things. i want to make things that are deep and critical. that shows my reality, feelings, thoughts, and the miseries and wrongness of the world, and the wonders of life and humans.
i like manga style, i might draw in different styles too, but i dont want to abandon manga, it means a lot to me.
thank you for your interest, k@tsu <3
i understand that view. not that i completely agree with it. indeed, creating things yourself is primal to transforming reality.DarkRoseofHell said:
So honestly speaking... if you don't like it then... don't bother. Instead of pushing for others to conform to your ideals, make your own example and have others follow. If you can't then you have no right to complain if you yourself are not doing anything.
feminism is equality. feminism fights against gender roles, including the male ones. ofc, feminism is a huge movement made by the people who are inside it, so its not homogeneous. however the main premises of it are of equality. there are some girls who have been raped and suffered a lot because of the patriarchy that answer verbally on a hateful way, but they dont do any real harm to men. they just complain and accuse, but for real they just want to live their lives in peace, without fear of something horrible happening again. a little empathy and understanding that, despite also having to fit a conformity, males are in a position of privilege, is never too much.DarkRoseofHell said:
Socially, I don't care about feminism. I only care about equality.
i dont understand where did i talked about shielding others from reality?DarkRoseofHell said:
You DON'T need to help shield others from reality.
i talked about the opposite, the excessive idealization that distorts peoples standards and perceptions of reality.
i understand what you said. and my belief is that no human being is 100% a thing. i believe that most people are trying both, even if subconsciously. me included. of course im trying to help people in the world and change this agonizing reality, but theres a part of me that burns with this ideal, inputting this command for me to follow. i believe that what fuels this idealism i have is the agony i see and feel in this world.DarkRoseofHell said:
Did you really ever look at what you're attempting to do and ask yourself, are you truly helping others or are you just trying to satisfy your own idealistic vision?
oh, i wasnt aware you mod a forum, cool! hahaha, those peoples hearts burn passionately when the matters are inequality, for some reason~DarkRoseofHell said:
I've seen these argument go around and around on the forum I mod. It's generally only a few posters vs a lot of others that just don't care or hate what is now denoted as 'social justice'. It's irritating, it's stupid, it's repetitive. I've never seen anyone properly answer the above questions properly.
im sad you think that social justice are these bad things. indeed, trying to build something just to be constantly smashed by no constructive reason isnt very encouraging. i hope i have answered well enough! feel free to point something out or anything, okay?
pedophilia is a complicated matter. healthy individuals arent pedophiles, and the pedophiles themselves are extremely criticized in our society. however there is a tone of hypocrisy here: in our society, waxing the female body is necessary. body hair is seen as gross and turn-off. women are obsessively trying to look younger and younger, at every stage of their lives. one of the most popular (real) porn genres is that in which 13~15 yr old girls are tricked into losing their virginity. the sexualization of kids, especially girls, is more and more blunt, in entertainment, in ads, in the conduct of the population.animefan01 said:
You said it. Loli doesn't affect the mind and push people towards pedophilia. So why should seeing women objectified push one to think that they're nothing but sex objects?
an emblematic case happened here in brazil recently: a cooking program featuring only kids as participants had among them a girl called valentina, 12yr old. what happened? mass tweets of brazilian males commenting on the girls attractiveness, stating they would bang her, and other sexual comments. some even marked her twitter account on the tweets.
a 12yr old girl.
its considered pedophilia.
but those guys thought it was okay.
they didnt see themselves as "the damned pedophiles".
pedophilia is a huge taboo, it is. however its slowly starting to permeate our culture without us realizing. we just realize its pedophilia when we come across a gross case of pedophilia, like when a 6yr old is sexually abused and this comes to light (instead of the child keeping quiet, as it happens frequently).
either way, what does it have to do with what we were first discussing, right? i said loli doesnt stimulate ppl to be pedophiles. so why would misogynistic material stimulate ppl to be misogynous?
thats because misogyny is much further infiltrated in society than pedophilia.
make an experiment: try talking about pedophilia somewhere. most people will react with disgust, criticizing the violators as inhuman and sick.
then try talking about sexism. what will happen is many people even denying it exists. some will say its overrated. some others will say that women want privileges. a few might criticize sexism and acknowledge its damage. the fact is that most people dont even realize sexism exists, or think its just a natural thing and harmless, its a correct thing. this is the level of infiltration misogyny achieved in society. it makes people think its normal, its not bad, its part of their natural living.
once i read an extremely interesting article that compares pedophilia to misogyny. in it, the main premise was that, in rape cases, society makes it much more about the sexuality of the victim than the act of the criminal. this insight was brilliant. notice that, the more a woman is sexually active and independent, the more she is blamed when she is a victim of sexual violence. on the other hand, when children are victims of sexual abuse, they are completely pitied and protected by society, as poor angels that suffered an atrocity. but why would the grown women be any less pure and to be pitied because they exert their sexuality in the way they see fit? the only conclusion you can achieve by following this logic is that women are to be blamed if they exert their sexuality following their desires. that this is wrong. that they cant have the sexual lives they want to, or they will be impure, dirty, and undeserving of any human treatment. after all, when a tragedy occurs to them, its not as bad, she had the blame, she "was asking for it". ofc, people choose to be victims of atrocious crimes, its really fun to be that. (not.)
unfortunately, i didnt find this article using google. however, i did find a number of interesting things, that i think that will put it on a brilliant way that i couldnt. take a look at these quotes:
“We mute the realization of malevolence- which is too threatening to bear - by turning offenders into victims themselves and by describing their behavior as the result of forces beyond their control.”
“Oddly then, in our search for meaning, we often assign victims too much blame for their assaults, and offenders too little. Our inconsistencies do not seem to trouble us, but they are truly puzzling. After all, if the offender is not to blame for his behavior, why would the victim be, no matter what she did our didn't do? Our views make sense, however, if you think that we are trying to reassure ourselves that we are not helpless and, that, in any case, no one is out to get us.” - Anna C. Salter, as seen here http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1353702-oddly-then-in-our-search-for-meaning-we-often-assign
“Can a woman not walk with her possessions down the street of a city?” - Brandon Sanderson http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/418799-can-a-woman-not-walk-with-her-possessions-down-the
“Young women are not putting themselves in danger. The people around them are doing the real damage. Who? you might wonder. The abstinence teacher who tells her students that they'll go to jail if they have premarital sex. The well-founded organization that tells girls on college campuses that they should be looking for a husband, not taking women's studies classes. The judge who rules against a rape survivor because she didn't meet whatever standard for a victim he had in mind. The legislator who pushes a bill to limit young women's access to abortion because he doesn't think they're smart enough to make their own decisions. These are the people who are making the world a worse place, and a more dangerous one, at that, for girls and young women. We're just doing our best to live in it.” - Jessica Valenti http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/6651409-young-women-are-not-putting-themselves-in-danger-the-people
“In the 1890s, when Freud was in the dawn of his career, he was struck by how many of his female patients were revealing childhood incest victimization to him. Freud concluded that child sexual abuse was one of the major causes of emotional disturbances in adult women and wrote a brilliant and humane paper called “The Aetiology of Hysteria.” However, rather than receiving acclaim from his colleagues for his ground-breaking insights, Freud met with scorn. He was ridiculed for believing that men of excellent reputation (most of his patients came from upstanding homes) could be perpetrators of incest.
Within a few years, Freud buckled under this heavy pressure and recanted his conclusions. In their place he proposed the “Oedipus complex,” which became the foundation of modern psychology. According to this theory any young girl actually desires sexual contact with her father, because she wants to compete with her mother to be the most special person in his life. Freud used this construct to conclude that the episodes of incestuous abuse his clients had revealed to him had never taken place; they were simply fantasies of events the women had wished for when they were children and that the women had come to believe were real. This construct started a hundred-year history in the mental health field of blaming victims for the abuse perpetrated on them and outright discrediting of women’s and children’s reports of mistreatment by men.” - Lundy Bancroft http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1265678-in-the-1890s-when-freud-was-in-the-dawn-of
“I embrace the label of bad feminist because I am human. I am messy. I’m not trying to be an example. I am not trying to be perfect. I am not trying to say I have all the answers. I am not trying to say I’m right. I am just trying—trying to support what I believe in, trying to do some good in this world, trying to make some noise with my writing while also being myself.” - Roxane Gay
here are a series of quotes from "Bad Feminist", one of Roxane Gay's most acclaimed books. http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/26563816-bad-feminist it's EXTREMELY interesting and elucidating!
examples: pls click me :)
here is a list of articles that she has written to journals and magazines, all linked to the original texts: http://www.roxanegay.com/writing/
ok so back to the question, misogyny and sexism are deeply rooted within society, so when you create a content that reaffirm those roots, youre strengthening them further by coming and going from a place where you dont once exit this society and its way of seeing. youre contributing to naturalizing it further. after all, you see it every fucking day, in every fucking ambient, even in animes. normal. pedophilia isnt a "thing" as sexism, just as more bizarre and morbid content that arts can bear. pedophilia and, lets say, zoophilia/bestiality, arent epidemic as abusing of women. they are less naturalized behaviors that are present in a more punctual fashion. the mass of misogynistic content present in 3d and 2d porn reaffirm, set examples and further perpetuate the already deeply rooted system of exploitation of women and their sexuality.
if you stop to read about 3d porn, youll be horrified with what the actresses live there.
still, pedophile fictional content still has potential to be problematic, perhaps less but it is present. what is urgently needed is a serious, open minded and concerned discussion about fictional content, 3d porn, sexuality and rape. we need to become more and more conscious about the wrongness and violence that exists. i personally enjoy loli/shota content, i think its enchanting, and i dont wish it to be censored or extinguished. but i recognize the importance of discussing it, of raising awareness in people, in not perpetuating ignorance and numbness in people. we need to live with our whole minds and body into it. not being afraid to look at what could be wrong and questioning it. of wanting to change. its not bad. it can be quite good. this is what us feminists believe, generally speaking. we dont want to live as society is living now, because we suffer with it, see injustice and wrongness with it, our lives and ourselves are largely damaged by it. isnt it natural? we are trying to raise awareness to those issues that are so damaging to so many.
youre fortunate to be an emotionally smart and privileged person. unfortunately. not all people have this level of awareness about oneself you have. more sensitive and emotionally insecure people can lose their notion of self-image, or distort it, and this is a source of great suffering. please keep your eyes open for that.animefan01 said:
Then shouldn't almost all male western main characters being white, muscular and brown/black hair affect women's perception of me? Because I'd be pretty darn ugly and I know I'm not, I've had people compliment me on my looks before.
a common parameter used to measure how strong a female character is is how independent of men she is, how much she builds her own story. women are very often used on plots as anchor for male character development, and not as a complex character themselves with a relevant plot. ofc, theres much more involved into building a "strong" character, but this is a v relevant aspect.animefan01 said:
And what is a strong female character?
i completely agree. having your personal preference is completely different from body shaming. you dont need to, for an example, make a public post on facebook about how the fat girls are disgusting and ugly and should all die. this is different. do you understand? nobody is asking you to change your intimate preferences. we are just asking you to respect people, independent of how their bodies are.animefan01 said:
DON'T FUCKING HARASS ME WHEN I SAY YOU'RE NOT ATTRACTIVE TO ME
whew, that was some journey here. hahaha
lastly, this BEAUTIFUL quote, perhaps the most beautiful ive read today:
“Viciousness is part of the world we live in, some of us choose to ignore it with the rationalisation of wanting only positivity to flow our way. How selfish we have become! That the pain of others has become a hindrance to the fulfilment of our positive selves.”
by Aysha Taryam. http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7042810-viciousness-is-part-of-the-world-we-live-in-some
https://youtube.com/watch?v=HJihi5rB_Ek
I'll probably get to typing later but have this video. It's not in any direct response to you but I found it very interesting.
I'll probably get to typing later but have this video. It's not in any direct response to you but I found it very interesting.
You are welcome, and good luck dearDebbie said:
i like manga style, i might draw in different styles too, but i dont want to abandon manga, it means a lot to me.
thank you for your interest, k@tsu <3
???Debbie said:
my psychiatric condition isnt stable at all
You don't create equality with a one sided movement. You create a lop sided view of your version of equality. The black movement for equality for example, there were pretty much two 'factions' within the entirety. You had people that demonstrated like Martin Luther King Jr. They were civil, they worked with official mediums, they cooperated and garnered help from the 'white' side too. Then you had the black panther, this is what your like minded are at. Its forceful, no cooperation, one sided, 'my side or get lost' kind of thing.feminism is equality. feminism fights against gender roles, including the male ones. ofc, feminism is a huge movement made by the people who are inside it, so its not homogeneous. however the main premises of it are of equality. there are some girls who have been raped and suffered a lot because of the patriarchy that answer verbally on a hateful way, but they dont do any real harm to men. they just complain and accuse, but for real they just want to live their lives in peace, without fear of something horrible happening again. a little empathy and understanding that, despite also having to fit a conformity, males are in a position of privilege, is never too much.
While you may not be it, this nonsense has seen enough harass others in order to get their way. A mod friend for example has been doxed (reveal personal information online). He had calls of threat, and packages of questionable content that end up resorting to calling the authorities and being placed in protective custody. He had to move out of his house to a hotel and cut off all internet communication. This was for a few months. The cause of this was because he was discussing 'gamergate' things. While he was on the 'pro' gg side, he was civil, he never insulted anyone, but what he gets is a face full of radicals ruining his life for a while. What came of it? Well, more people hate the social justice side.
Honestly, you're finding a victim in which no victim is had. There are woman that work in 'high power position'. There are men that work in 'lowly position'. This patriarchy does not exist anymore. This is something fabricated for the sake of finding something to blame. If anything that is 'ruling' its the high class rich people that control companies and politicians.
That is shielding people from reality. The one you mention in specific like body type is fine. No it isn't, being obese is bad, being anorexic is bad. These are objective facts that are detrimental to your health. It doesn't mean we should be making fun of them, we should be helping them, encouraging them. If it's a friend accompany them to gym or help plan their food.i dont understand where did i talked about shielding others from reality?
i talked about the opposite, the excessive idealization that distorts peoples standards and perceptions of reality.
Stuff like fat acceptance is wrong. You don't accept bad attributes that are objectively bad for you.
There are subjective stuff, looks, preferences, etc, things that people will or will not like. Then there are objective stuff, health, mental well being, education, etc.
Reality is there are rapists, there are murderers, there a pedophiles, this is reality. You can't fix something that is either their compulsion, mental issue, or just plain nuts. You help others by making them aware that these are issues, how to protect themselves, not try to make it go away because it never will.
Some people will never change, reality is that. You live with it, make an example of yourself. You don't need to try and change people. You change yourself, you make better of yourself. That, while passive, garners more support than this shit. You have stories way back in the day during the separate but equal period. There were people that just work along side with each other just because they learned that people are human. They are like them. That one american foot ball movie, Remember the Titans, based off historical events. They found out that hey, these guys are awesome! Why did we even hate them, we work together and accomplish amazing things. What we have here is "hey, this side is evil! (patriarchy), fuck them!". While obviously exaggerated a bit, that is what it looks like.
Some are blind hatred, but most reasoning is, you are doing it wrong. They understand that no one is the same. There are some things that each gender can do, some things they can't do. This is reality.oh, i wasnt aware you mod a forum, cool! hahaha, those peoples hearts burn passionately when the matters are inequality, for some reason~
im sad you think that social justice are these bad things. indeed, trying to build something just to be constantly smashed by no constructive reason isnt very encouraging. i hope i have answered well enough! feel free to point something out or anything, okay?
There was a woman (forgot the name =/) that is/was a very famous feminist that modern 'feminist' hate. She was like minded of what is considered first/second generation feminist. They look for equality in the right things. Politics, work place, stuff like that. They know that they're still female. They know they can do some things that males can't and vice versa. They know that they're all different.
Offtopic but wow, more text here than a damned VN .. that is all.
Sadly, morality has no saying in the process of evolution. An individual is born because his/her ancestors wanted to have children and were good enough at it. That's all. Regarding this aspect, among all the mindsets, 'love yourself the way you are' is not exactly the best one in getting yourself laid.
However, the progress of society seems to make each individual have same-ish numbers of descendants, leading to a flatter distribution in many variables than a Zipfian one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zipf%27s_law) forged by fierce battle of survival.
Just less than 10 generations ago, one still need to be somehow gifted to survive - at least you need to battle bacteria on your own. On an evolution viewpoint, the diversification of ideas, including sense of value, is just beginning in a handful of regions over the globe. Give it more time.
For the time being, having a bottomless supply of cute virtual girl actors that would do anything to please the audience, anime and manga industry would continue to fulfill the fantasies that real actors can't or won't. Bad name? Sure. Problem? Maybe. Then try to fix it? Nah, maybe just give it time.
However, the progress of society seems to make each individual have same-ish numbers of descendants, leading to a flatter distribution in many variables than a Zipfian one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zipf%27s_law) forged by fierce battle of survival.
Just less than 10 generations ago, one still need to be somehow gifted to survive - at least you need to battle bacteria on your own. On an evolution viewpoint, the diversification of ideas, including sense of value, is just beginning in a handful of regions over the globe. Give it more time.
For the time being, having a bottomless supply of cute virtual girl actors that would do anything to please the audience, anime and manga industry would continue to fulfill the fantasies that real actors can't or won't. Bad name? Sure. Problem? Maybe. Then try to fix it? Nah, maybe just give it time.
sorry for not giving news, i had to take some classes and this didnt go too well w my condition.
blaming our ancestors is no excuse for not progressing as we could and keep committing mistakes and acts that no longer fit our technological and cultural advances. there is a natural inclination, but we have grown smart enough to avoid or bend it. we are not irrational animals. not that anyone here in particular said it, but i abhor when men speak as if they were biologically incapacitated. those ppl need to grow up and stop blaming women for their own lack of ability. most people arent biologically incapacitated.
as the world evolved, "getting laid" is no longer a priority. a good mental condition is now much more important for survival than "getting laid". what will aid you to study, get a great job, work, manage your earnings and have a solid social circle is a good mental condition. sex isnt the center of how things spin now, especially for women, that (at last) are growing more independently. so this is why "love yourself the way you are" is so much more important now.
its with our individual acts that things around the globe will change. "giving it time" is remaining passive and alienated from the entire process, from the re-thinking and re-building of a new way of thinking and living. well ofc you are free to take your own decisions... if thats how you want to go, then okay, i hope it goes well for you.
idk how appropriate it is to talk about this
blaming our ancestors is no excuse for not progressing as we could and keep committing mistakes and acts that no longer fit our technological and cultural advances. there is a natural inclination, but we have grown smart enough to avoid or bend it. we are not irrational animals. not that anyone here in particular said it, but i abhor when men speak as if they were biologically incapacitated. those ppl need to grow up and stop blaming women for their own lack of ability. most people arent biologically incapacitated.
as the world evolved, "getting laid" is no longer a priority. a good mental condition is now much more important for survival than "getting laid". what will aid you to study, get a great job, work, manage your earnings and have a solid social circle is a good mental condition. sex isnt the center of how things spin now, especially for women, that (at last) are growing more independently. so this is why "love yourself the way you are" is so much more important now.
its with our individual acts that things around the globe will change. "giving it time" is remaining passive and alienated from the entire process, from the re-thinking and re-building of a new way of thinking and living. well ofc you are free to take your own decisions... if thats how you want to go, then okay, i hope it goes well for you.
idk how appropriate it is to talk about this
'getting laid' is not meant to be taken literally, but rather means 'having the chance to have children', which I mentioned earlier. The later traits you described in your paragraph certainly helps.
You seem to be very willing to act and have a plan to accelerate the progress, if so, please go forward.
You seem to be very willing to act and have a plan to accelerate the progress, if so, please go forward.
I don't think this thread worth a sticky. I'll destick this.
it's a very problematic issue, but i can see it's like going to israel and criticizing their terrorism on palestine. hahahahaha
i think the peak of this objectification is reached within imageboards like this and danbooru and dojin hosting sites.
it's weird but i can't help but having a lot of consideration towards this imageboard specifically.
despite some questionable content, i think it's a really well maintained site, with an engaging community, quality control, variety of images, and decent tagging system... not to mention the very high standards of scanning and scan edition you just don't see anywhere. my friend said he never saw anything about greyc filtering plugin anywhere else. and it's so good, it's weird.
it's a really special place in the internet. i wonder how come there aren't more people participating in the forum.
while im here, id like to leave an image. i was studying this artist again and came across this, which once was one of my favorite images of him for the lack of explicit content too. but now i look again at it and feel horrified. before i comment any more, id like to show it to you and see what you think of it. hahaha
im pretty sure at first youll say im exaggerating, but thats because this culture is so deeply ingrained into us it became something normal. its totally sick and violent, though. well. its okay if you dont agree. i understand talking about this on a criticizing light can be an aggressive thing to us. its okay. its not personal. post #112048
i think the peak of this objectification is reached within imageboards like this and danbooru and dojin hosting sites.
it's weird but i can't help but having a lot of consideration towards this imageboard specifically.
despite some questionable content, i think it's a really well maintained site, with an engaging community, quality control, variety of images, and decent tagging system... not to mention the very high standards of scanning and scan edition you just don't see anywhere. my friend said he never saw anything about greyc filtering plugin anywhere else. and it's so good, it's weird.
it's a really special place in the internet. i wonder how come there aren't more people participating in the forum.
while im here, id like to leave an image. i was studying this artist again and came across this, which once was one of my favorite images of him for the lack of explicit content too. but now i look again at it and feel horrified. before i comment any more, id like to show it to you and see what you think of it. hahaha
im pretty sure at first youll say im exaggerating, but thats because this culture is so deeply ingrained into us it became something normal. its totally sick and violent, though. well. its okay if you dont agree. i understand talking about this on a criticizing light can be an aggressive thing to us. its okay. its not personal. post #112048
That's your call, but I would have left it somewhere obvious for people who will bring this up. You will see more of this as it's where society is being steered.Checkmate said:
I don't think this thread worth a sticky. I'll destick this.
I'd argue it's the vocal minority that you see as being 'steered'.
The whole idea is to make the world a better place.DarkRoseofHell said:
I'd argue it's the vocal minority that you see as being 'steered'.
And you have a few billion people's variation on a better world.
It's the elites idea of an ideal world.DarkRoseofHell said:
And you have a few billion people's variation on a better world.
I typed something up that elaborated in detail on my own thoughts, but despite being logged in, it said I wasn't upon trying to post it, so I lost it. Every paragraph. All typed up on my phone. I wish I could type it up again, but that disheartened me, so I'll just post a non-elaborate version of my conclusion:
I sympathize with both sides. I think there are solutions out there to combat objectification without censoring or tossing out objecyifying content--mainly taking responsibility as creators of content and, as the situation demands it or you think it's relevant, educating your audience. A simple disclaimer would be an okay start. Not as an obligation, but as a proactive attitude in the industry. Comes with other issues, but that's why we discuss things. To come closer to solving these issues as they arise.
I sympathize with both sides. I think there are solutions out there to combat objectification without censoring or tossing out objecyifying content--mainly taking responsibility as creators of content and, as the situation demands it or you think it's relevant, educating your audience. A simple disclaimer would be an okay start. Not as an obligation, but as a proactive attitude in the industry. Comes with other issues, but that's why we discuss things. To come closer to solving these issues as they arise.
I think all the relevant points have been pretty clearly made. As was said earlier its only a small, vocal minority that wants to make people think there is something inherently wrong with whatever industry isn't cow-towing to the loud Social Justice crowd.
Honestly doing anything but idealizing beauty or the absolute best physical specimens of humanity is a recipe for creating a slothful, disinterested, cynical, and obese society. Look what happened to western art when the standards were gotten rid of. Now we get existential pieces that are so all over the place it only resembles art by the name and declaration of it being 'art'.
I would suggest to Debbie that the path she goes down is one that is fraught with negativity. Being upset over an drawn female ass that is showing nothing explicit, should tell you where that train of logic is going. Sexualization is not inherently bad. Idealization should be desired, so that it makes us all strive to emulate it. The two are not mutually exclusive. Some is done for almost entirely lurid reasons and others are meant to emphasize its beauty, and idealization. We need our sexual drive so that we can continue to survive as a species. Trying to censor that, really stinks of almost Puritanical chastity.
Honestly doing anything but idealizing beauty or the absolute best physical specimens of humanity is a recipe for creating a slothful, disinterested, cynical, and obese society. Look what happened to western art when the standards were gotten rid of. Now we get existential pieces that are so all over the place it only resembles art by the name and declaration of it being 'art'.
I would suggest to Debbie that the path she goes down is one that is fraught with negativity. Being upset over an drawn female ass that is showing nothing explicit, should tell you where that train of logic is going. Sexualization is not inherently bad. Idealization should be desired, so that it makes us all strive to emulate it. The two are not mutually exclusive. Some is done for almost entirely lurid reasons and others are meant to emphasize its beauty, and idealization. We need our sexual drive so that we can continue to survive as a species. Trying to censor that, really stinks of almost Puritanical chastity.
As far as I understand it this is not a fight against sexualization but a fight against objectification. There's a difference between the two and a youtuber I follow made a pretty good video about that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx6cSMsX6V0
In short, it's okay to find women sexy, it's not okay to think women exist for you to find them sexy.
However I think the main problem I see with objectification in art is not that it happens but more so that it perhaps happens too much. It's difficult to find works of fiction with multiple interesting female characters that aren't there just for the audience to look at or for the male protagonist to fall in love with. Stories affect us (to a point) and if we never see women in stories who are treated as humans with their own opinions and ideas then obviously there will be people who believe that to be the truth.
I didn't read the whole thread as I kinda found the walls of text intimidating but I'm assuming that debbie is trying to point out that in anime/manga there's always the same pattern on how women are shown and treated and that it can have harmful consequences on how women are seen and treated in real life.
In short, it's okay to find women sexy, it's not okay to think women exist for you to find them sexy.
However I think the main problem I see with objectification in art is not that it happens but more so that it perhaps happens too much. It's difficult to find works of fiction with multiple interesting female characters that aren't there just for the audience to look at or for the male protagonist to fall in love with. Stories affect us (to a point) and if we never see women in stories who are treated as humans with their own opinions and ideas then obviously there will be people who believe that to be the truth.
I didn't read the whole thread as I kinda found the walls of text intimidating but I'm assuming that debbie is trying to point out that in anime/manga there's always the same pattern on how women are shown and treated and that it can have harmful consequences on how women are seen and treated in real life.
Radioactive
Objectification in anime, manga and related arts